Miniflyer

The entire cockpit including superscale instruments and a fully scale seat i will also be doing myself. The museum here has a seat in the F5 and one on static display which i was able to take full measurements and references.

Heres an artificial horizon i did for the F4/F104. The F-5 is almost identical, but has different markings, so i will be easily able to adapt it:

lavi rider

My Feedback: (6)

I’m sure it’ll be top notch

baron-noir

My Feedback: (1)

Hi Mylo,

Strange I asked Pavol about a F-5 cockpit and he said he had none. That was less than 2 months ago... I will ask him again.

For the seats there is a company called Print Scale he does the seats for the 1:5 Tiger II F-5F seats

@ Miniflyer you seems to actually get really physical with the F-5 there ;-) Funny thing about the so called "secret" I once wrote to RUAG to ask them to send picture of the cockpit and I got the same garbage answer about "this is military seceret" BS

I mean you have thousends of pictures on Airliners.net just about anything that flies including most military aircarfts etc. , you get you tube videos about B-1 crews showing their cockpit stations etc.

Heck the F-5 is a VFR fighter 40 years old with only 2 guns and 2 short ranges missiles with almost no radar capability... but I get it this should be still classified info. Gotta love the Swiss administration.

Miniflyer

Wellllll you have to see whats behind it. The US sell a US developed weapon system to a foreign nation. You dont want them to publish info on your weapons, or sell them to others, which is totally understandable. So an end-user agreement is signed, stating what may or may not be done, who may obtain access, who can get what documentation, and what is to be done with the cells once lifetime has expired. These are firm one time contracts for the entire lifespan of an airframe type. It was agreed when the f5 was bought, the f18, and will also if the f35 should come to our mountains. All these companies are government contracted and tied to secrecy, so they wont give it out if your not also contracted, it can get them in trouble. Requesting exemption is a big fuss, and not worth it for a stranger asking for a favor.
What the air force shows you is a different thing....in this case i was in the lucky position that an active fighter was prepared according contracts for public display and put on display at a museum where i have excellent contacts and access.

concerning the seats: please compare the homepage picture to the actual seat. Its a basic impression, but is far from scale.....
i need 3 seats myself, and also promised 2 to a friend, so it will be on the to do list rather soon....

baron-noir

My Feedback: (1)

Miniflier I understand all what you say, but just yesterday I found 3 perfects F-5 cockpit picture on the web. For years in Switzerland during open days they installed ladders so that people could climb on them and seat in Mirage, Hunter and Tiger aircrafts and take nice pictures of themselves in the cockpit. Fact is there is nothing secret about a F-5 cockpit in Switzerland as in most other countries. What's usually classified is weapon range, capabilities and doctrine. (I have seen some of them during my time) Even then I think all airforce around the world know pretty well what a F-5 armed with Sidewinders is capable of doing. So this whole secret paranoia thing is quite typical of Swiss officals I would say. It's mostly funny tough.

Congrat with the seats, hope you make them with fabric cushion like Print Scale.

Miniflyer

Baron, thats just what i tried to explain. RUAG is a private company, Air force is the government.

The air force has royalty over the airplanes according end user agreement, and it contains what may or may not be shown. The open door days are (usually) conducted with aircraft meeting those criteria.

RUAG has a contract with the air force to shut up and give out nothing. So thats what they will do. If you want them to file for an exemt you better come up with a better reason than: well im building a model and id like to know.

Best first hand info will always come from first-hand owner.
If you want a picture of a local private sportscar its better to ask the owner, than to go to his mechanic and ask him to call you when its in for repairs and let you in after hours.....


Seat cussions on the F5 seat is easy: there are none. The pilot strapped them on and wore them. They consisted of the parachute under the butt and survival gear on the rear. The seat is a bare metal tub with some rivets. For display and maintenance purposes there are special inlays, but they are all marked no fly. Picture source is prime portal.
my seat will be identical. And printing in 30 micron resolution it will have a near perfect surface without having to fill all the porous holes and then sanding down all the details, so yeah, i feel confident ill work out something really scale.

Halcyon66

Yes and no Miniflyer, so could I come to the museum and get the same access as you?

You're saying you have excellent contacts and access, so that is somewhat going around the whole issue that is being discussed.

The material most modelers want are along the lines of SRM (structural repair manuals) and IPC (Illustrated parts catalogs), they do not go into any real IP of weapon systems and the like.

With the F5 you're going back to the 60's and more so you can even buy one privately (demiled) so again there is a strange line between what is available to modelers.

https://www.controller.com/listing/f...itary-aircraft

These days you can go online and get more info on the F-35 than you can get on a 50 yr old F5.

Regards,

Miniflyer

PS heres a picture of pilots walking out wearing their cussions. Picture source avgeek.com

Miniflyer

Yes and no. Ive worked with the museum for years, they know my background as pilot and engineer, and they know and trust i know my way around, and that i wont touch stuff i am not familiar with, so my access is somewhat more open, explaining why i climb over the airframe....
But it is a public museum with general access, and they will be very helpful with special requests under attendance. These guys are really nice and helpful to anyone coming.
On swiss f5 there are 2 panels explicitly exempt from public viewing. Both were removed on the display aircraft, so it is no-limits.
It was scheduled to be returned to the air force for active service, im not sure if its still there now....have not been there since spring.


Comcerning your link: theres a big difference. Its a US produced fighter, demilitarized and sold by US government themselves to private parties. It is not part of an international sales contract protected by end-user agreements.
Feel free to question the sense it makes, but its a contract situation, and any government contract company will do squat to breach their contracts in order to make a lone modeler happy with stuff they may not share (even if its made publically available on other sources).

baron-noir

My Feedback: (1)

Miniflier, that precisely what I have told them and shown them the picture of the build F-5. But I already knew they would bugger me off. Anyway I don't care as I found plenty of pictures already. Yes I guess the Airforce would be less stringend about taking pictures than a private company. I think that was the reason.

baron-noir

My Feedback: (1)

But there is still one thing not clear for me : so you go to a public museum where an aircraft is openly displayed for all to view (well that's the purpose of a museum don't you think, is it Dübendorf or Payerne as they both have the F-5 on display) but then you come-up with some secret thing "I can tell you but then I will have to kill you" and talk about non-disclosure agreements etc. etc. Sorry I have issue reconciling the two. If the Swiss Airforce puts their F-5 in museum you can bet that there is nothing left to hide in them and so everything is free to document as much as you can. I call *BS on this one sorry.

Miniflyer

Simple difference: if i drive to the museum with a camera and a tapemeasure then i have the rights of the pictures and sketches i create at a publically accessible place. If a company sends me manufacturer loft lines and technical documentation and makes me sign a non disclosure agreement prohibiting me to pass it on, then i have the right to do nada, nill, zip, zilch with these documents.
And if i am asked to pass on specific documentation that fall under the agreements, then i am sorry but i will not breach the contracts as a favor to a stranger (or also to a friend for that matter). Neither me nor my company work that way.

If youre unhappy with that then so be it.

baron-noir

My Feedback: (1)

OK then that is something different if a private company gives you info and make you sign a non-disclosure agreement. That was not clear from your posts, and BTW I didnt' ask you anything I don't why to seem to be so agressive about it.

Miniflyer

Baron, im not being aggressive, im being direct.

In post #22 i was asked for protected documentation, in post #23 i explained why i cannot hand it out.
Then you came in post #28 and were complaining because a company that is not hired to do public relations work on government aircraft (and is therefore in a contract forbidding them to do so) turned you down on the request.
I then tried to explain to you that you contacted the wrong source, and why you were turned down. I also showed you the way to legally acquire your requested information.

And now you come and call my statements BS. This i corrected. Sorry if this offends you

baron-noir

My Feedback: (1)

Dude you start a thread about your "F-5 renovation" project and you even ask if anyone is interested. Then you brag about your "secret" access to "classified" info (lol) and use this argument to shut down people who make you the favor in showing interest in your project... If that bothers you so much, then I suggest your keep it for yourself next time and avoid posting on a public forum.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Move on boys before I start some administrative actions.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Mini flyer, do you have data, that you could extract a mechanical “schematic” of the main landing gear linkage? Also of the canopy actuating linkage.

Meaning if you are building data and sharing, these would be at great interest to me. Thanks

Miniflyer

Hello Matt,
The canopy opening mechanism is not that easy, as it is integral part of the frame, of the rear canopy base and the ejection seat rail. It will need to have all those parts matching together in order for it to work.
The main gear is fairly straightforward, with the brace pulling in the leg and a hydraulic cylinder on the main strut aiding.

None of the parts are in the design phase yet, i just have the sketches and pictures, but i will get to work on it as soon as i have another project wrapped up.

Halcyon66

These might help on the landing gear.

Regards,

Halcyon66

Forgot to add this site has some great photos.

Northrop F-5E Tiger II - Walkaround (Swiss Air Force) (toniosky7.blogspot.com)

Regards,

Halcyon66

F-5 landing gear, screaming deal unfortunately he will not ship. Great talking piece.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/29440927252...&segname=11051

Regards,

Miniflyer

Excellent. Anyone in New Jersey up to taking it?

Halcyon66

Miniflyer, can you outline why some struts have this piston and other don't?

Regards,

Miniflyer

Its not a factor of strut, its the aircraft version. T-38 and early F5 had the "weak" gear with the slim tires. Later F5 versions received beefed up structures, stronger engines and a stronger landing gear with wider wheels. Looking at the geometry and position i would suspect the cylinder controls the angle of the gear door. On the T38 a stiff connection provided enough clearance to clear the slim wheels, but for the wider wheels the door needs to be angled outward further. Im not 100% sure but i dont see any other function that would make sense at that position.

Halcyon66

Yep, you are completely correct. On this other image from a crashed airframe it shows a pad that would connect to the gear door.



I finally found reference material for the gear and still not 100% correct as some parts are out of line yet getting there.







Regards,